World of Genesis: Brad, I know you worked with Daryl Stuermer back in 1988 on his Steppin’ Out album. Was that the first time you worked together?

Brad Cole: We met in 1979 on a Gino Vannelli tour, and we got to be good friends while on tour. This was just after he joined Genesis [for their tours]. It was the year after he first toured with them for And Then There Were Three. He had a some time off following the Genesis tour, so he took this gig with Gino.

Even though it wasn’t music he was terribly interested in at the time, he was interested in going out with his band. Gino’s drummer was a guy named Mark Cranny who was one of his best friends at the time. He since passed away a few years ago, but Mark was a genius of a drummer and just a wonderful guy. I was new to LA, and I just got into this band after auditioning. In 1979, I was basically where Paul [D'Adamo] is now... For me, it was a dream come true opportunity. Gino was someone I had liked for years, so I got the gig I dreamed of getting. Its great – but it’s also a little scary, because you now have to step up and deliver. It was during that tour that I became friends with Daryl and Mark and several of the guys in that band and we’ve been life-long friends ever since.

Between 1979 and 1989 when I was asked to join Phil Collins’ band, Daryl and I stayed very good friends. During that time, I would come to see the Genesis shows and come backstage. I had met Phil numerous times, and I was sort of like a pet that hung around the periphery of the band (laughs)! So, they all knew about me. So, when Peter Robinson declined to go back out on tour with Phil in 1990 for ...But Seriously, my name was right at the top of the list, because of Daryl’s recommendation and just because I had been around so much.

One thing I will say about Phil is that I don’t think he really likes the idea of going through a whole cattle call concept of auditions. He prefers to get personal recommendations from people and after a lot of vetting and, in those days faxing back and forth, it happened. So, it was primarily because of Daryl’s recommendation.
 

"I’m an arranger, I’m a producer, and I’m a player, but I’m not an artist... Whatever expression I do comes out in my work for other people, and I’m pretty content with that."

WOG: That dedication to kind of  “rehearse it, rehearse it, rehearse it – ok let’s record it”, was that an indicator of Phil’s desire to have the album come out perfect or just because he had the resources to make an album this way?

BC: I think it was more a matter of resources. If he had wanted it perfect, he would have taken six months to do it. I think it was Face Value, his first solo album, that he built on his demos, he worked on for a long time. Then, he basically sweetened the demos. So, that’s how that record was made. This one was made without demos – basically as a band.  We were doing them demos in real time.

I just did this thing for this songwriter Barry Mann who wrote “You Lost that Lovin’ Feeling” for this series coming on PBS called Legends and Lyrics. [The concept of the program is that] its songwriters doing their [own music]. It was just thinking of that because of Marc Cohn.  

It’s kind of like Unplugged where they explain how the song came to be and so on. Anyway, Marc Cohn was talking about one of the songs and he got so tangled up in the explanation of the song that had to stop the tape. He just boxed himself in this corner that he couldn’t get out of (laughs). He said, “Let me try that again!” Then he came back in a second take and did the explanation in 20 seconds instead of three minutes… That’s where I was a minute ago here – I got off on some tangent (laughs)!

WOG: Brad, for musicians like you, Daryl, Chester or Leland who are probably more traditionally trained to read music when you arrange or compose a piece of music, what challenges if any does that represent when you work with an artist like Phil who uses his own system of dots and dashes to learn the music he arranges or composes?

WOG:  So, you never had any kind of formal audition with Phil?

BC: No, not really. I just sent off some tapes of some of the stuff I had done over the years… all of which Phil didn’t like. Not because he didn’t like what I did – he didn’t like the music. It was mostly dance records and that kind of Tiffany kind of stuff from the ‘80s… Not great stuff and not really in his style exactly. So, there was probably initial doubt, but Daryl’s recommendation and assurances swung him over, finally. There was not moment where I had to sit in front of him and play or anything. There were a few phone calls and we sent tapes back and forth.

WOG: I understand that Chester Thompson was essentially the same. Phil liked what he heard on Frank Zappa’s Roxy and Elsewhere album and when he saw Chester with Weather Report in concert in London back around 1975.

BC: Right. Well, remember, Chester already had a real pedigree as a drummer back then having already played with Weather Report and Zappa alone, not to mention some of the other things he had done by that time.  I mean, he wasn’t diddling around doing these silly demos that I was doing at the time, he was a major force by the time he got into Genesis and, especially, by the time he was touring with Phil as a solo artist.
 

BC: Well, for example, the big band thing… We did a recording session with another drummer, a friend of mine named Nick Vincent, in LA. We did those arrangements, and Nick played them kind of as any session player would play them. He played them straight up, mostly for hits, anticipations, and the basic architecture of the chart. Phil got that recording and wrote out his own 'Bish-Bah', which is what he calls it. (Brad demonstrates some simulated air drumming…) “Bish!”… “Bah!”

Phil did his 'Bish Bah' charts with his little dots and hieroglyphics based upon the recording. So, he did the entire thing by ear, basically. He’s actually improved in his reading of regular music over the years. I think he’s been learning how to read rhythm charts at least. I mean, I just wrote him up this rhythm chart of this song [for the Motown project that was recently announced] in regular notation and he seemed to have no problem with that. Phil does everything intuitively by ear, which is all you need. However you notate it for yourself is up to you… But, we can’t hand him a complicated drum chart from a jazz band arrangement and expect him to read that right away. Once he hears it though, he will play it perfectly! That was also the case with Buddy Rich. Buddy couldn’t read a note of music.

Actually, you’d be surprised how few people in the commercial music business can read music. It’s a very intuitive-ear based business. I mean, in Nashville, they only write numbers on their charts. I have a hard time reading them, because I read music (laughs)! I’m looking at these numbers and it looks like algebra equations and it’s really hard to know what the hell’s going on! It’s a question of whatever method people are used to looking at and communicating with each other. You use whatever you can use to share your ideas.

WOG: When I spoke to Ronnie Caryl a few years back, we talked about his joining of Phil’s band. I understand that he didn’t necessarily feel fully accepted initially by everyone in the band. What is your take on that?

BC: I think everybody was a little worried after so many years about putting in an extra player. We understood Phil’s change in style by that time. I mean, there were multiple guitar parts with Dance into the Light, and another guitarist was needed. The thing you have to remember is that a band is like a big sloppy dysfunctional family. If you bring in a new sibling, it’s virtually inevitable that there will be a breaking in period, I guess, but that didn’t take very long, and I think Ronnie’s been great!

Actually, we just did this thing in November where Phil, Ronnie and I played at Phil’s son’s private school. Ronnie did a great job! In fact I was the one who screwed up. Ronnie was really worried about messing up because he hadn’t played in such an exposed position with Phil in such a long time. He ended up playing flawlessly, and I absolutely fucked up the ending of “Always.” It was a train wreck of nuclear proportions (laughs)… It was huge!

WOG: I understand that they gave the performance out on CD, so I guess now it’s immortalized on CD (laughs)?

BC: Yes, unfortunately, it’s there for the world to hear. Phil says he wrote pretty funny the liner notes for this CD, basically saying that shit happens (laughs)!  …and it certainly did!

WOG: Speaking of live recordings, I was always really surprised that following the First Final Farewell Tour in 2004 that Phil didn’t release a live album. I know he initially thought about doing an Encore Series similar to what he did on the 2007 Genesis tour where every night would be released on CD, but that when he wanted to do that for his solo tour in ’04 that Atlantic Records put a stop to it.
 

WOG: Speaking of the Phil Collins Big Band project, it seemed like a very logical progression since Phil has always had a bit of a jazz influence on his solo albums and uses the big horn section on tour. Were you surprised that there was never a follow-up big band project with Phil?

BC: No, I wasn’t surprised, because it was an expensive venture for him and Tony [Smith, Phil’s Manager]. The record didn’t do that well. It did better in Europe than it did in America, and that’s primarily because Americans don’t understand what a big band is, in the pop market anyway.

Our performances with the big band were also less successful in America than they were in Europe. Primarily, because I think Americans were coming to the concerts and expecting to hear something like the Ringo Starr All-Star Band with lots of players. Instead they see this big trombone section on stage, and they would get confused. Then, when Phil didn’t sing that much in this show, they got angry in America.

BC: I didn’t know about the Encore Series thing. As far as an actual live album goes, Phil had done Serious Hits… Live! which was the big live album from the ‘90s, and there had been two live DVDs since not to mention the release of Love Songs. So, maybe he was concerned about over-exposure and over-saturation of the market putting out a number of things at the same time? You'd have to ask him.

Honestly, we really hadn’t done much on the last tour that hadn’t been done before, so I’m not sure there was much reason to do another live album. I think if he can be urged to do a small acoustic version of the show in a smaller venue or perhaps with a smaller band that would be a great thing to put out live, because it would be a recasting of what people have heard. A lot of artists are doing that now. Boz Scaggs, as an example, has totally rejuvenated his career by doing his older material in a simpler setting with almost like a jazz band. It sounds wonderful. Phil has always wanted to do something like that, but I don’t think the opportunity ever came up where the desire matched the times everyone was available or whatever. I do think someday he’ll want to do something like that.

WOG: I think my favorite “Brad Cole moment” was back when Phil Collins did the A&E Live by Request performance around the release of Phil’s Hits album in 1998 where people called in to the show to request specific songs that they wanted played. My impression was that the show was completely scripted and that essentially Phil's people would say to A&E, "Here are the 20 songs we know and are prepared to play, and screen everyone else out."  Well, someone managed to get through on the air, perhaps by saying to the telephone screener that they were going to ask for a big solo hit single like “One More Night” and instead requesting “Home by the Sea” by Genesis. Phil openly admitted that it hadn’t sung the song in quite some time and couldn’t recall the words, but you almost instantly started playing the song, which really impressed me. I recall thinking that “This guy is either the most prepared musician on the planet, or he’s a Genesis fan who just happened to get the gig playing with Phil Collins!”

BC: (laughs) …Was it there or MTV Unplugged? I did it there, too. I just happened to know that song. It’s not hard. I just knew how it went and the feel and the changes and everything. Phil didn’t recall all of the words, but he got into it, and Daryl and I played some of it up through the chorus maybe. I’m sure it’s on YouTube. I was a little bratty about starting that without permission, but I figure you go with the moment!
 

WOG: I always read liner notes, and it seems that session work is a fairly incestuous circle. Especially, in that Nashville circuit. It seems like LA and New York were the hubs if you were a session player in the ‘70s and ‘80s and now it seems like it’s largely Nashville, Tennessee.  

BC: Well, its incestuous everywhere that there is a scene.

WOG:  Well, what I mean is that, as an example, you worked with Kathy Troccoli and so did Chester Thompson... You worked with this other person and so did Leeland Sklar.... Perhaps not on the same album each time, but there is a definite repetition of hired session players on albums coming out of places like Nashville. Because it’s such a tight-knit group of players, do you ever find yourself running into each other on these various projects you contribute to?

BC: Yes. Actually, on a project I’m doing at the end of March, another French record. Leland Sklar as well as another friend of mine, Bernie Dresel are both on that project. Bernie used to be the drummer with the Brian Setzer Big Band. When I was in LA for all of those years, you would run into people all of the time. You’re right. It’s a closed knit circle. People kind of worm their way in over the years.

The ‘A-Team’ as I like to call them, which is (John) JR Robinson, Nathan East, Greg Phillinganes, and Neil Stubenhaus and that whole crowd. The Qunicy [Jones] crowd; they play together all of the time. I would be lucky enough to be in a situation like that now and then.  I’m finding that Nashville is very tough to get into. It’s even tighter than LA. There are fewer opportunities and fewer guys do more things. I was hoping that Nashville would be a little more fluid than it has turned out to be. Whether I stay there or not, I don’t know.

WOG: Knowing that you play a number of instruments…

BC: Well, I used to (laughs)…

WOG: Well, when you do write compositions for yourself, do you write them around the piano or another instrument first?

BC: I actually focus most of what I do now around the rhythm section. I think like a band rather than just a keyboard player.

WOG: Is that the arranger in you working overtime?

BC: Yeah.

BRAD COLE ON THE PHIL COLLINS BIG BAND:

"Our performances with the big band were also less successful in America than they were in Europe. Primarily, because I think Americans were coming to the concerts and expecting to hear something like the Ringo Starr All-Star Band with lots of players. Instead, they see this big trombone section on stage and they would get confused. Then, when Phil didn’t sing that much in this show, they got angry in America."

WOG: Brad, you’ve worked with a fairly broad range of musicians from pop/rock to jazz to contemporary religious. Which sessions do you look back on at this point in your career and say, “If I was to pull out a CD of my work or a portfolio of songs, this is some of the music I would play for someone?”

BC: Hmmm… That’s a good question! I’d have to think about that one! Well, the Natalie Cole stuff is up there. I did more album recording in the ‘80s than I did in the ‘90s. I kind of dried up a little over the past 15 years. I just finished a record with a French singer named Hugues Aufray who’s done an album of all Bob Dylan songs in French.  He’s 79 years old, and his main claim to fame was that he was the first French singer to do Bob Dylan’s music in French. He wrote the translations and got Bob Dylan’s approval. So, he’s a guy from the ‘60s and ‘70s who’s doing a sort of nostalgia album.

There is a big wave of that over in France right now. We recorded that album in this great studio in New York City. It was this all analog studio with tubes and millions of vintage mics. Everything was going into Protools, but everything else was analog. The album has this fat, warm beautiful old sound. That was a pleasure! I got to play a lot of acoustic piano, and a lot of organ and Wurlitzer and stuff like that. I also got write string quartet arrangements for this thing. So, I would put that up there as a current project. I did one song on a Michael Bolton album before he became annoying (laughs) called “Soul Provider” which was really good…

WOG & PD: (laughs)

BC: … Doing Phil’s record [Testify] was fascinating, because it was sitting around in a chateau for a week and dropping in to the recording room now and then doing my part. Which is kind of like the way it used to be done in the old days when there wasn’t this clock watching mania that there is now. So, that was kind of a cool process to watch that happen from the ground up. I don’t know, I’d need to look at my resume and see what else I’ve done (laughs)!

PD: Well, hopefully, when we’re done you’ll add mine to your portfolio!

BC: Oh, I will.
 

WOG: When you’re hired to come in and play a song a certain way, are you able to shut off the arranger in your head and just play the track as is? Like, on Dance into the Light for example?

BC: Well, not entirely, because when I start playing a part, I’m always arranging the part as it goes. It’s just not a matter of throwing chords down without any thought of how they will interact together. I always try to make a chord progression have a line to it. I do that inside, and if they don’t like that, we’ll try another alternative.

You never stop thinking like an arranger, particularly as a session player.  You’re looking how your little part of the puzzle fits in. So, you have to be aware of all of the other parts of the puzzle when you are listening to the inter-play between the rhythm section, and you don’t want to play too much or too little... what register are you in?, what part of the keyboard are you in?, how big of a sound do you want? There are a million iterations… and those are all arranger kind of things.

It’s no coincidence that some of the greatest arrangers have been trombone players for big band. I mean, those guys are right in the middle of it. So, they are really aware of what’s going on up top and what’s going on below. Plus, they get no glory whatsoever… So, the first thing they want to do is write their own shit. There are tons of trombone arrangers… Great ones! Bass players tend to make great arrangers, too.

PD: ...The person who does my horn charts for my 12-piece variety band in Texas, called Plan B, is my trombonist. He does all of the horn parts for whatever we are doing.

"....He wasn’t a soloist or a star, but just
note perfect as an accompanist. That’s
enough for me."
 

WOG: Have you ever considered doing a solo album of your own?

BC: I did consider it, and I’ve decided not to (laughs). I’m an arranger, I’m a producer, and I’m a player, but I’m not an artist. I think in order to be an artist you need to be more like [Paul D’Adamo] and less like me.  As an artist, you need to be very single-minded about the thing that you do.

Phil Collins is an artist. He’s a classic artist. He is 100 percent concerned about the thing that he does. He’s not a journeyman; he’s not a gun for hire musician... He’s played with other people, but that’s secondary to his primary interest. Phil has an inner voice that he wants to express. I don’t. Or, at least I don’t think I do. Whatever expression I do comes out in my work for other people and I’m pretty content with that.

I think a lot of guys out there who put out their records who spend a great deal of money doing it, and a great deal of time doing it, and its satisfying to do but its ultimately difficult to get anywhere with it. I mean, unless I was to do a record with Chester and a bass player from Nashville as a jazz trio... That would be fun to do. If it could be done quickly and cheaply. Yeah, I’d be into that, but I’m not a songwriter primarily, and I’m certainly not a singer in terms of being able to communicate something that is original to me. I’m a below the line guy, and that’s exactly who I like to be.

WOG: Many of the jazz albums you see out there are essentially live recordings done at some small club over one or two nights. It doesn’t get much cheaper and easier than that…

BC: Right. My friend Arnold McCuller from [Phil’s] band, has put out several albums, including a live one we did. These were terrific records! I’ve done some tracks for him along the way. However, because he can’t get a record deal in America, he needs to self-release, and the mechanism of self-release is tough and expensive. You have to do the job that the record company would normally do for you, so you end up having to wear eight hats instead of one. I’m not that crazy about doing that. I mean, if I was going to do something like that, it would have been 15 years ago. I’m old now (laughs), and I have grandchildren, and I’d much rather be known as a really great accompanist.

There was a piano player named Ellis Larkins who was probably best known for his work with Ella Fitzgerald. This guy was a true artist as an accompanist. That’s a real special art.  Whenever he played with her, I learned an awful lot about accompaniment from listening to recordings with this guy. He wasn’t a soloist or a star, but just note perfect as an accompanist. That’s enough for me.

Also, a guy named Ralph Sharon who played with Tony Bennett for decades.  When we were out with the Phil Collins Big Band in 1998, Tony Bennett was a guest artist. Tony brought his trio with him, and Ralph Sharon played. He was another extraordinary accompanist…  Ralph was a great piano player overall, but an exceptional accompanist. Just watching him work was an education in itself. My interest in that kind of thing is collaborative, and that is what my reputation is amongst the singers that I know.

SELECTED PROJECTS FEATURING BRAD COLE:



                                  
        Phil Collins - Finally...                   PHIL COLLINS -
         The First Final Farewell                  SERIOUS HITS...
               Tour DVD (NTSC) -                           LIVE! DVD (NTSC) -
               Filmed on the '04 Tour!                 Filmed on the '90 Tour!

                                             
             Natalie Cole -                                     The Phil Collins Big
               Unforgettable...                                 Band - A Hot Night In
               with Love                                             Paris

Special thanks to Paul D'Adamo and Brad Cole for granting this interview. Additional thanks to Paul D'Adamo for the behind-the-scenes photographs from the making of his album. For more information on Paul D'Adamo, visit his MySpace page. For more information on Brad Cole, visit his official site. This interview © 2010 Dave Negrin and may not be reprinted in whole or in part without permission.

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